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Coy Bacon
Zn, in a much earlier post I said that you were reading more into my comment and I think I added you were having a knee-jerk reaction to my mild criticism of Goff. That is clearly apparent now. I have been saying exactly what McVay, O'Connell, Goff, and many others were saying. The Football Outsiders critique of Goff shows simple areas where Goff could improve, independent of the OLine. Goff and the others are aware of those opportunities of improvement.
My original comment was that "I'd like to see Goff take a big step forward in terms of handling pressure." Do to this discussion I've seen all of those named above also want to see Goff take a step forward.
You are incorrect in your comment #1 in that I don't factor it in. In fact, my original statement implicitly admits OLine breakdown, i.e. "pressure." I have consistently stated that a bad OLine affects QB performance.
Your comment #2, yes, it was a very silly thing to say. If you would have bothered to understand where I was coming from before replying you would have seen that I said the same thing you admitted there. I think we've moved past our "impasse" and have come to an agreement. It only took 20,000 posts.
If our OLine stinks this year, and it might, then Goff is not going to be his 2018 self. I believe he could still be better than his 2019 self because he would have improved his game. If our OLine is studly this year, and it might, then I think Goff has a great chance to be his 2018 self, and maybe improve on that.
I think we just spoke past each other.
Don't know if I read anything in as much as just made my own point. While an OL is in that much disarray, DURING that period, most qbs (we named 2 exceptions) struggle. So to me the question about improvement is kind of beside the point---no one improves DURING that because they can't (ie when the OL is in that much disarray) AND if it happens again, the way I see it, they're in the same boat. It will just be the same thing. Which I don't put on Goff--I think that's true of virtually any good qb. I don't think anything that happened in the first 9 games of 2019 are unique to Goff (far from it). In that situation, qbs struggle (except of course the 2 we named though it caught up with them too).
So I don't think that if the OL collapses again that he is going to improve on his 2019 performance behind a collapsed OL. THAT is what I have been trying to say this whole time. So yeah we disagree on that. If it happens again, way I see it, it will be the same issues again.
I don't believe for a minute that Goff, O'Connel, and McVay all think the qb can be better under THOSE conditions. But I also think they all know it doesn't work if the qb just goes around saying "what do you expect? the OL was bad." (Bulger never complained about the OL either, and he went through far worse than what Goff went through in 2016 and the first 9 games of 2019 when it comes to playing with a broken OL).
I DO believe that they all like the idea of the qb taking responsibility and working on his own game, regardless. I think it will mean nothing if the OL collapses again, BUT he could come out of this improved in some areas while playing behind a relatively healthy, solid and stable OL. He might be better for the experience (in fact I think he will be.)
I don't take the Football Outsiders critique as seriously as you do because they just never seem to get that many of the things they focused on are direct results of playing under those conditions, with a woefully shaky OL. All I want to say to F.O. is, yeah he will get better with those things once he has a relatively healthy, solid OL. He got better under pressure when the line solidified toward the end because there was less pressure and more confidence in the situation.
Meanwhile I have seen great qbs harassed by the Rams pass rush who also could not play well under those conditions--examples include Brees in 2013 (the game where Quinn got to him), Rodgers in 2018, Mahomes in 2018 (who was throwing to ghosts at the end), even Wilson (like in the 2017 game where he ended up throwing backwards while in Donald's grasp). The thing about a shaky, collapsed OL is that it allows virtually any decent defense to look like the Rams best pass rush against a good OL. And the same things happen to the qb.
So I don;t think it's as simple as the F.O. guy tries to make it out to be.
And btw I don't think there is anything wrong with his throwing motion and I have seen analysts look at it in detail and praise it. You just agree with the F.O. analysis way more than I do.
Here is JG under pressure in 2019 showing that he is just not the kind of klutz F.O. makes him out to be:
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