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Re: yep I don't buy that

November 06, 2019 07:02PM
I admit I like PFF. And I agree that when comes to measuring the OL as a whole they are not the only word on this.

However, when it comes to measuring the performance of individual linemen, they are the only source providing measurable metrics. Doesn't mean it's gospel but they provide data points to go along with what we're seeing.

And since you've used and defended them many times before, clearly they are not all bad. They may not be dead on but in your own words, they're also usually not wildly off.

Point taken on the OL struggles being a unit issue. Despite that, my eyes still saw certain things on individual players. I don't believe it's a fallacy to get a read on individual play when the OL as a unit is struggling. For example, I knew, and so did all the rest of us, that Demby was struggling before PFF reported he had the worst guard rating in the league.

To my eyes it looked like Noteboom was struggling and Edwards was doing fairly well. PFF only confirmed that.

But clearly we see this one different and that's ok. I just take exception to calling opinions that are different than yours "hyperbole".

The problem with their metrics is that they simply judge individual play. They cannot tell, and have no way to assess, the situation the Rams had where the entire OL was out of sync and simply had not played together. When a whole OL is struggling, no individual player will look good. Timing and communication and coherence are off for everyone. So you just get these individual scores which then offers the illusion that what we're seeing is 5 individuals all struggling on their own, as opposed to a UNIT that is not playing well as a UNIT.

The thing is, if all the individual players are BAD, then you can't improve much.

But if it's unit coherence you CAN improve.

And I think it's the latter.

Here's Rich Hammond for example from a recent article:


This is the most obvious of all. Early in the season, the entire Rams’ offensive line was kind of a mess, and that surprisingly included veteran tackles Andrew Whitworth and Rob Havenstein. Their play has picked up of late, and first-year center Brian Allen has been relatively steady, but the two guard positions still need some work.

Let's pretend for a moment that we agree Hammond is right about the OTs and OC. (Hammond, notice, does not share the view you see around which says that Allen is just a liability).

You can then add that Blythe came back early from an injury and hasn't been 100% yet, and that Edwards is a rookie in his third start but shows a lot of promise. There's room for improvement there.

Now, what does this have to do with NB?

NB played in the earlier "OL lacking coherence" phase, and to me anyway, it's going to be inaccurate to judge his individual talent based just on that. Too many people do that though--the OL is stressed and out of sync as a unit but then people pick on individual players as if the issue were individual talent.

Which brings me back to PFF. They are not much help when the UNIT struggles for UNIT reasons and they don't have the mechanisms to make the distinction. They just paint individual players with bad grades and then express amazement when the unit later improves.

I don't reject PFF and I usually say, their grades and rankings are ballpark-- you don't have to take their exact grade or ranking as set in stone but they're usually more or less in the ballpark.

But when it comes to assessing an OL that is struggling as a unit for reasons above and beyond individual talent, PFF is not that useful IMO.


Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2019 07:16PM by zn.

  Whitworth open to returning in 2020

dzrams676November 05, 2019 12:57PM

  Re: Whitworth open to returning in 2020

no name265November 05, 2019 01:18PM

  Rams shouldnt be...

LMU93318November 05, 2019 01:19PM

  Re: The injury changes things...

dzrams221November 05, 2019 02:45PM

  Why would he have to be the starter?

GlacieRam177November 05, 2019 02:54PM

  Re: Rams shouldnt be...

Rams43173November 05, 2019 02:59PM

  leave one year early vs. one year late

LMU93137November 06, 2019 04:33AM

  Re: And yet....

dzrams126November 06, 2019 06:55AM

  I don't buy the bad buzz on NB

zn159November 06, 2019 07:09AM

  Re: I don't buy the bad buzz on NB

Rams43113November 06, 2019 07:29AM

  Re: I don't buy the bad buzz on NB

dzrams110November 06, 2019 07:47AM

  I agree DZ

ferragamo7992November 06, 2019 07:55AM

  yep I don't buy that

zn105November 06, 2019 08:24AM

  Re: yep I don't buy that

dzrams99November 06, 2019 08:43AM

  Re: yep I don't buy that

zn109November 06, 2019 08:56AM

  Re: yep I don't buy that

dzrams94November 06, 2019 09:24AM

  Re: yep I don't buy that

zn98November 06, 2019 07:02PM

  I also think it's got to be about the whole unit

LMU9388November 06, 2019 09:25AM

  How do you know Edwards can play LOT?

Deadpool117November 09, 2019 09:09AM

  right DP

ferragamo7980November 09, 2019 09:46AM

  Re: How do you know Edwards can play LOT?

zn101November 09, 2019 10:23AM

  Good enough for me

Deadpool76November 09, 2019 12:46PM

  Re: Good enough for me

zn78November 09, 2019 01:39PM

  Re: And yet....

AlbaNY_Ram99November 06, 2019 07:35AM

  Re: And yet....

dzrams97November 06, 2019 07:52AM

  Re: And yet....

zn94November 06, 2019 08:35AM

  Re: And yet....

LMU9389November 06, 2019 09:15AM

  Re: Whit would be my Matthews/Weddle type signing!

dzrams104November 06, 2019 09:40AM

  Re: Whit would be my Matthews/Weddle type signing!

LMU9387November 06, 2019 09:47AM

  Re: Whit would be my Matthews/Weddle type signing!

dzrams105November 06, 2019 09:51AM

  Noteboom is rolling the dice

ferragamo79280November 05, 2019 05:32PM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

LMU93158November 06, 2019 04:31AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

zn159November 06, 2019 04:54AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

LMU93142November 06, 2019 06:12AM

  Evans at LG

Hazlet Hacksaw139November 06, 2019 06:44AM

  Re: Evans at LG

zn123November 06, 2019 07:01AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

Steve97November 09, 2019 02:43AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

zn84November 09, 2019 06:07AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

Steve89November 09, 2019 08:44AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

zn88November 09, 2019 09:00AM

  Re: Noteboom is rolling the dice

zn78November 09, 2019 08:58AM

  Re: Guards value

Steve81November 10, 2019 05:38AM

  I don’t know how this OL will shake out for ‘20...

Rams43114November 06, 2019 07:24AM

  Re: I don’t know how this OL will shake out for ‘20...

dzrams106November 06, 2019 07:56AM

  Re: I don’t know how this OL will shake out for ‘20...

Rams43105November 06, 2019 08:08AM

  doubt it

zn121November 06, 2019 08:27AM

  Re: doubt it

PHDram101November 06, 2019 08:40AM

  Re: doubt it

dzrams96November 06, 2019 08:54AM

  Re: doubt it

zn97November 06, 2019 08:58AM

  Re: Fair enough...

dzrams93November 06, 2019 09:26AM

  Re: Fair enough...

zn92November 06, 2019 09:31AM

  Re: doubt it

21Dog92November 07, 2019 04:08AM

  Roll of the dice....

LMU9384November 07, 2019 05:04AM

  Re: Roll of the dice....

zn95November 07, 2019 05:35AM

  Re: Roll of the dice....

LMU9383November 07, 2019 07:33AM

  Re: Roll of the dice....

dzrams85November 07, 2019 08:38AM

  Probably gonna be a ‘best 5’ will start scenario in ‘20...

Rams4382November 07, 2019 09:11AM

  will Noteboom miss OTAs?..

LMU9383November 07, 2019 09:38AM

  Re: will Noteboom miss OTAs?..

zn100November 08, 2019 07:12PM

  Re: will Noteboom miss OTAs?..

LMU9379November 09, 2019 04:44AM

  Thing Is

BC Ramsfan118November 08, 2019 10:10PM

  Re: Thing Is

zn107November 08, 2019 10:22PM

  I see them updating line in 2020

ferragamo7986November 09, 2019 06:41AM

  Re: I see them updating line in 2020

zn76November 09, 2019 06:54AM

  Re: I see them updating line in 2020

Rams4379November 09, 2019 07:20AM

  Here's the thing the Rams are not the Pats

ferragamo7972November 09, 2019 07:37AM

  and the Pats are just one convenient example of a common thing

zn82November 09, 2019 08:19AM

  Re: Yes---not vets to fill in on OL

Steve87November 09, 2019 02:45AM

  The issue will be the cost

RockRam193November 05, 2019 03:17PM

  Always hard to predict when Father time slams the door

Rams_8179November 09, 2019 08:41AM