Re: Found some numbers...

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TonyHunter87
Every time Donald gets a sack or makes a tackle he has the change to cause a fumble, but he doesn't. I know it seems like nitpicking but to me a player as great as Aaron would have more than 4 forced fumbles in 3 seasons.

It's different from Revis, who didn't get an opportunity to get picks because opposing teams didn't throw his way. But that's just the way i look at it.

I've heard this charge that great DT's should force a lot of fumbles. So I did some research to see how AD stacks up against the best DTs of all time.

I got the list of 30 best DTs of all time from Gil Brandt's article published 6/29/17. Link here: Top 30 Greatest DTs

Many of the great DTs in the top 10 played before the 1970s when stats started being kept. For that reason, I didn't include them in the comparison.


John Randle 29 FF in 14 seasons - 2.07 avg.
Ray Childress 19 FF in 12 seasons - 1.58 avg.
Sapp 19 FF in 13 seasons - 1.46 avg.
Aaron Donald - 4 FF in 3 seasons - 1.333 avg.
La'Roi Glover 16 FF in 13 seasons - 1.23 avg.
Cortez Kennedy 11 FF in 11 seasons - 1 avg.
Curley Culp 14 FF in 14 seasons - 1 avg.
Bryant Young 12 FF in 14 seasons - .86 avg.
Haloti Ngata 6 FF in 11 seasons - .55 avg.
Richard Seymour 4 FF in 12 seasons - .33 avg.


Aaron Donald comes in 4th in most average forced fumbles per year. If he had any more than 4 in 3 seasons, he would be on the greatest ever pace for forced fumbles.

But the larger point is, as you can see, DTs don't typically create many forced fumbles. My theory for that is that DTs are the closest to the QB and directly in their line of sight. There isn't a lot of surprise factor when they get sacks.

OTOH, DE's are often coming in from the QBs blind side. There is a much higher possibility in those circumstances of swatting the ball out.

FWIW, AD is near the top in amount of sacks per year too. He's above Sapp and a tick behind Randle. I haven't done calculations for all of the DTs yet and may never do that but a cursory glance tells me that he's on a top 3 of all time pace.

You essentially have ONE 3-tech DT on the list and only Sapp and Donald as 3-tech (penetrating disruptive DT's) played in the passing era.

Its a distorted view and I resist it. lol

Ok big guy give me some names. And if you really have a problem with the list, talk to Gil Brandt.

What you're really unwittingly (or maybe wittingly) acknowledging is the rarity of an elite pass rushing DT. It says something that we haven't seen a great one since Sapp retired which was a decade ago.

P.S. I'll give you another name who I just remembered. He's not an all time great however.

D'Marco Farr, 12 FF in 7 seasons - 1.71 avg.

Gil Brandt was a Ryan Leaf fan too! lol

Nope I resist the claim that we have not seen that many great dt's since Sapp and that they are rare.

Kawann Short and Geno Atkins are pretty good.

Suh is great Fletcher Cox, Linvall Joseph, Damon Harrison.

Watch out for the Whiners they got some young studs upfront too.

Of course "great" is subjective but IMO THIS is great...

J.J. Watt has 69 sacks and 15 forced fumbles over the past four seasons!

And he plays inside a LOT!

The greatest to come along in a looooooong time!

Well whether you admit that pass rushing DTs are rare or not, what is clear is that they generally do not force many fumbles.

Here are the stats for your guys:

J.J. Watt 15 FF in 5 seasons - 3.0 avg.
Kawann Short 6 FF in 4 seasons - 1.50 avg.
Aaron Donald - 4 FF in 3 seasons - 1.333 avg.
Fletcher Cox 6 FF in 5 seasons - 1.2 avg.
Geno Atkins 8 FF in 7 seasons - 1.14 avg.
Linval Joseph 6 FF in 7 seasons - .86 avg.
Damon Harrison 2 FF in 5 seasons - .40 avg.
Ndamukong Suh 2 FF in 7 seasons - .29 avg.

Which one is much different than the other? JJ Watt is listed as a DE and his sacks and FF numbers are in line with what a typical great DE produces. Unless we have a breakdown of how many snaps inside he plays, the evidence points to him being a DE not a DT. I can agree that Watt is one of the greatest DE's to come in a long time....

Among DTs, modern and all time greats, Aaron Donald ranks near the top in sacks per year, stuffs, and forced fumbles. And in the modern age, he obliterates his peers in pressures.

Yes, Watt is listed as DE, but he's usually inside on passing downs. Now, that has a qualifier, in 2015, he played more outside on 3rd downs/nickle than in previous years. 2012-2014 he was usually a DT in the scheme, in 2015 he was more of a DE, but I don't have the numbers.

Anyway, that said, in any age, no matter what names are put out there FF are not a good metric for DTs, even the hybrid 30end/40 tackle types. The way to look at DTs is sacks and stuffs and double teams. I know with you I am preaching to the chior, but there is little doubt that Donald is off to as good a start as any DT in NFL history only Donald, Joe Greene and Merlin Olsen went to Pro 1st 3 years. (Tom Sestak went to AFL all star game 1st 3 years)

I don't know future, so I don't know what will happen but if Donald keeps this up he will be HOF. No one, not even Merlin or Joe Greene were better in their 1st 3 years. He's the best.

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"This year, Watt has played 89 percent of his snaps at defensive end, according to ESPN Stats & Information, leaving him some space to freelance on his assignments within the Texans' scheme. Last season, which was Romeo Crennel's first as his defensive coordinator, Watt played 99 percent of his snaps at defensive end."

Watt Snaps 2